Abraham with Isaac or Ishmael?

I have been preached many times by Muslims that the bible we are reading has been changed by the church, similar to the works of Dan Brown. This story have been told many times in attempts to convert me and indeed is quite a passionate agreement. Almost similar passion displayed to the defense that MCA is not about money.

One of the great 'urban legend' is the story of Abraham and Isaac/ Ishmael which is also the 'evidence' of the conspiracy of the Jews and Christians to uphold Isaac and dethrone Ishmael.

Islamic arguments

Contrarian perspectives

So, it is clear that there is no verse in the Quran and traditions that provided the proof, hence the continual divergent among Muslim theologians in contrast with the Christian and Jews's stand.

My thinking is a bit more shallow.

Muslims believe in the 4 books - Torah (Old Testament ), Zabur ( Psalms ) , Injil (New testament ) and Quran.

Note that the earlier 3 are books that 'is in the original state and not that has been corrupted by human/church'. So far, no evidence where these real books are.It is claimed that the church has them.

(Reminds me of Ezam Mohd Nor who claimed that he has 6 boxes of proof against Anwar Ibrahim and then Ezam says that Anwar have the 6 boxes instead. )

Lets say we take the face value of the current 4 books hear what they say about Abraham and Isaac/Ishmael.

1.Torah - Isaac

2.Psalms - Indicated Isaac (the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac.105:9)

3.NT- Isaac

4.Koran - no name mentioned.

So, at best 3-1 score or 2-0.

So, take your pick on the evidences on the table and am still amazed on how people can be convinced with these arguments. (and be converted)

Anyway, to digress.

1. Paran - is a small town historically mentioned by Arab explorers etc. to be in the Sinai Peninsular, "Ibn Khaldun clearly places Faran in the Sinai peninsula, at the northern end of the Red Sea. Faran is associated geographically with Midian and with Aila (ancient Elath, modern Elat, located at the end of the Gulf of Aqaba). " So, Paran is not Mecca. (Read)

2. Lets say Paran is Mecca. Wonder how Abraham goes of with Ishmael and mom to Mecca ( probably a few years journey at those times) , stick around to build the Kaaba and then went back after the holiday. Did he bring the whole tribe or part of it? Did he leave his other wife behind with the newborn? Who was the designated leader when he is on leave?

That is easily 1500 km on foot accross desert just to go to Mecca. And he was already in the 'promised land' that God told him he would be (which is waaaaay up north)

Anyway, you believe what you believe. The devil is however, in the details.

Tattoo "kafir" on Non Muslims.- ref Malaysiakini

This writer (Mahaguru58 - he is one blogger whose writting comes out in Malaysiakini, Islamic perspectives. Oh, and if your writting is not pro-him, he will delete it. So, dun waste time posting on his blog esp. if you make effort to get the facts right) makes me hoping mad! Read here on a meeting of so called Muslim bloggers. They are the 'intellectuals" and supposedly far sighted.

"The reality nowadays is that Christians and other Kaffirs tend to zoom in and focus on the screwups by a few Muslims and then lay claim to saying that Islam is bad." - We respect the religion , but fear the worshipers and people in authority who misuse their power. And thanks for calling us Kafirs , all the time.

"... where Christians in Malaysia are prone to interfering into Islamic and Muslims affairs here since the change of leadership in the BN Government." - show me ONE example,please. Is it the one where Saiful was asked to swear by Quran and Muslim/ UMNO leaders says that it is ok to swear on the quran since Christians swear by their bible. ( which you see in US television shows but is not a Christian thingie. dumb dumber)

"I joked with MENJ about suggesting that instead of carrying a card which could get lost, maybe it would be better to have a tattoo on their chest or forehead that they are Kaffir!"- you mean, as the sign of 666? Or Harry Potter with moving graphics? Cool.

From

"The Christians know about it but refuse to accept the truth that the Gospel of Barnabas contains." - Church leaders and theologians have dismissed this book (wiki) and countless others, and not even part of Christian literature. Some Muslims took advantage (this website set up to propogate the views) since this 'gospel' suggest the link betwen Christianity and Islam. Here is the article from Muslim.net where it was summarized :-

"Imagine you were a Muslim who was told that someone found a lost "book" from God. Among other things, this "Sura" mentioned that Mohammed sailed on a boat to Mecca, and this Sura contradicted the teaching of the Bible and contradicted the Qur’an on ten points. The oldest manuscript of the alleged Sura was written in Italian, which is both not a Mideastern language and did not even exist in the time of Mohammed. Finally, this supposed Sura had some historical customs, which did not occur until 1,000 years later in Europe.
It is safe to say a Muslims would probably have a few questions, to say the least. Before you embrace this medieval forgery as an authentic work that shows the "real" teachings of Jesus, remember that this work contradicts the Qur’an, too."

Italian text, where wines are made in casts like old world wines and not in jars like in Middle East. (Photo)

Islamic scholars have done more studies on this book and now Christian scholars are taking a look. Both side agreed that it is a fabrication from medieval times, years after Jesus or Mohammad. If only the writer reads more than to parrot half truths.

GRAND FINALE
(Drum rolls please )

"I for one am doing what I can within my means to clear the air about Islam and in my own way share what I have come to learn about Islam and what it really is? "- I am honestly confused if your 'good' intent of daawah ( conversion) persuaded me. I am not perfect and I do not like hypocrites. I prefer be repeatedly called a kafir. If i become a muslim, I am not a Muslim but mualaf (convert). Mualaf sounds like a bread, i prefer kafir which sounds like coffee or lime. Thanks, but no thanks.

Damn if you do, damn if you don't

Update: So, the conference got shot down by a group of mobs and supported by police.

I was disappointed with what happened today, even more with PKR and PAS.

Anyway, i got thinking and contrasted that out with the attack on Christianity by the Da Vinci code phenomena. And i remember reading an email written in BM with the intention of teaching its reader to use the book to challenge christians.( for those who think that Muslims are 100% above board, here is an example) Anyway, my reflection is to the Malaysian Christian leaders who ask us to be calm and came out with forums and Q&A sessions. In these, we learn about the book, the author, the truth, half truths and creative stretches, the backup from secular findings, church history and theological explaination. I think it was an immensely mature way of handling challenges by educating and role modeling. There is no protest, book burning and name callings. Soon, the phase passed over and everybody is wiser, even those friends who tried to make the mountain out of molehill.

If Muslims felt that they have been incorrectly attacked, so does other religions. In my religion, Christ ask us to be forgiving to the extend of giving the other cheek. Christians are not perfect as we are only human. I think that is the difference. Please be more confident in your religion and mature in your response.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
(The Star) - The Bar Council Malaysia’s proposed forum pertaining to conversion to Islam is unsuitable for discussion in an open manner, Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak said.
He said an open forum could incite emotions among those with differing views. ( Is this a statement? of course emotions are part of human beings. But a mature human can handle their emotion and articulate that out, not resorting to pickets ala UMNO)

“Forums on sensitive topics are best discussed in closed sessions,” he told reporters after the launch of VistaJet’s charter services into Asia via Subang airport and the opening of SkyPark FBO in Malaysia here yesterday.
“We are not stopping public debates. It is something healthy, but (the proposed forum) should be a closed session.” Najib seemed to like to do things behind closed doors , with selected people. If Bar council is more inclusive and not exclusive, why put your own preference forward?

Asked whether the Government would stop the Bar Council from holding the forum, he said: “I don’t know. They have their own mind.”

Umno Youth exco member Datuk Pirdaus Ismail said the movement strongly opposed the Bar Council’s plan.
“Don’t play with fire! Don’t ever touch on religious and racial sentiments,” he said in a statement yesterday. “Whatever the excuses given, the forum still provokes Malay sentiments and creates uneasiness and public disorder, particularly among the Malays.” - Why can an UMNO leader make a 'lets go to war' statements like this and continously gets away it. I think his statement of 'excuses' is an excuse itself belittling the real mature people in Malaysia. When UMNO and PAS talks about Islam and Malay, it also created uneasiness among the very people that they are talking about to protect.


PAS spiritual adviser Datuk Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat questioned the Bar Council’s move to organise a forum that touched on Muslim sensitivities.
However, he would support a special forum between Islam and other religions, he told reporters in Kota Baru. - Untill now, there is no real initiative in this area. The fact that the government came out strongly and later back down on these engagements deprive avenues to engage constructively. And i doubt PAS can do better in this area.

Foreign minister Datuk Seri Utama Dr Rais Yatim, asked for his opinion on the Home Minister telling the Bar Council to call off its public forum, said: “This is not the Government’s decision. That was the Home Minister's personal view. - Syeh Hamid, you got that!?
“There is no need for us to place restrictions right from the start. If Syariah intellectuals want to discuss, surely we won't say no.
“If an issue needs to be discussed by certain parties, it should have a strong basis for that.”
- Finally, a wise man who dares to say what should be said. And probably because of that, he is not the most powerful race based warlord in UMNO. But again, lets look at a Malaysian context and not on one race, and you will find this argument valid. If the Islamic intellectuals can do it, why can't others?

Bar Council vice-chairman Ragunath Kesavan said in a statement: “We are not challenging or questioning the provision of Article 121(1A) conferring jurisdiction on the Syariah courts.”
The council was of the opinion that conflicts were best addressed in an open, frank and mature manner by all the parties involved, he said, adding that it had put together a panel of speakers representing the views of various parties.
“We believe that the forum will promote an in-depth examination of the issues involved, and will help create a greater awareness of the complex issues that we need to resolve together as a nation.”

When UMNO and PAS talks in secret ( khalwat) over Islam and ketuanan Melayu, it is right thing to do and have no impact towards other people's interest and emotion. At least the Bar council is transparent. UMNO decides based on its on skewed needs and sold them as ' good thing'. The government has clearly failed by side stepping this judicial crisis and does not have competence nor the political will to solve. If people then cannot engage to get clarity without threats of national security, it would mean that we are forced to accept this meekly.

Damn if you do, more damn if you don't.

Inikah Kebenaran? (Is this the truth?)

If one is to google "Injil" ( bible ) and "remaja" ( Youth) , one will find an interesting website called Inilah Kebenaran. ( The truth). Like great websites set up in United Kingdom and United States, it saught to tell stories of converts of the great religion of Islam especially from Christian backgrounds. The only difference is that it is written in local language ( BM ) and have local contents.

Gerakan Kristianisasi di Malaysia -http://malay.bismikaallahuma.org/gerakan-kristianisasi-di-malaysia/

An excellent summary of this website come from the 2 writters where they exclaimed that only thru the admitance of the this great religion ( from non Muslims) and implementation of Syariah law can it bring back the majesty of the Malay race in Malaysia. (Hanya dengan pengakuan Daulah Islamaiah dan sistem perundangan Islam sahaja yang akan dapat mengembalikan keagungan Melayu di Malaysia)

Do not like to waste too much time on it but here are 2 observations.

1. The article correctly identify Malaysian Muslims who wanted to officially convert to Christianity but are not allowed.

2. The supposed proof that books with ambigous titles like "Kaabah, Wahyu Ilahi dan Mengenal Rasul" turns out differently. This would be similar to the stories of bible being packaged to look like Quran. Perhaps those books are from different Islamic sects or maybe not. Yet the photos were books that have titles that are able to distinguished to be non Muslim books. Anyway, i always believed that my Muslim friends are more than able to distinguish between books/ articles ( consistent with my writtings during protest on book seizure, the BM Bible ban )

Awas Perangkap Kristian Untuk Remaja Islam - http://malay.bismikaallahuma.org/awas-perangkap-kristian-untuk-remaja-islam/#more-23

On the lighter note, this article steals the show...

1. Christian youths are encouraged with benefits ( perhaps monetory) and were taught different techniques to lure Muslim girls in Malaysia.(skim galakan kepada para jejaka Kristian serta diberi tunjuk ajar mengenai teknik untuk memikat)

2. These Christian man would then act to be attracted to the politeness, clothing & demureness of the Malay girls. (mereka akan berlakon seolah-olahnya mereka telah tertarik dengan kesopanan, cara berpakaian serta kelembuatan tingkah laku anak-anak gadis kita ini)

3. At the right time, these devious mans will make their first move by being 'pictured' together (not sure literally or taking photos to perhaps blackmail) in love, and to have sex with the girls.

( mereka akan digambarkan seolah-olah mereka terbawa-bawa oleh perasan cinta sehingga si gadis ternoda)

4. Finally,these sweet talker will convince the girl that they will get married since she is pregnant, but she has to convert because:-

a) In Islam, they would have sinned and be punished.

b) In Christian, they would be forgiven and since Mary is a single mother, it is more readily accepted. (menganggap awak senasib dengan Mary (Mariam))

- Oh btw, it is a sin in the bible. And Joseph never had premarital sex with Mary .. if u believe the bible.

I never thought of those logics. And i never thought about the precise words ( or pschyology) used to deviously manipulate some people. I do know however that figuratively, " a thief will know another thief". Perhaps there are and if really that there is a group that systematically target conversion thru such immoral techniques, i would be the first to be disheartened. Certaintly, the teaching of the bible and Christ urges us to not stoop to that level. For the issue of conversion is not of man, but God is the one who converts.

Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but whoever takes crooked paths will be found out. (Proverbs 10.9)

Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity [ Many manuscripts holiness] and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God's grace. 2 Cth 1.12

I would not be able to throw the first stone, but let us be careful to distinguish between emotions, propoganda and truth.

Latest Body Snatcher - No Justice to the Family

In the new paper, He claimed he visited his father when all the sibling are not around. Can he swear with his GOD name that he does this? All this while my PIL are staying with my other BIL in Klang. They will only go back to Sban on weekends or School holiday. When they are back we tried to have a gathering for the family but how come we dont see him at all. IS he too visible for us to see him? If you claim that you visited your PIL enough to make them agreed with you for the conversion only GOD know…. Read More ( The anguish of a Family member)

Here is my comment on this issue:

This is a loop hole that the islamic authorities need to close. I am going to be a bit ‘naughty’ and suggest this scenario. Since a Muslim can only inherit another Muslim’s property and non Muslims are not able to, it will motivate a nasty person to use this loophole to obtain property in the eyes of the syariah law.

The same with the law on divorce when someone can divorce their spouse and not pay alimony + get custory of children + whatever property... just by converting. What greater motivation can this generate to?

More facts of the case

Justice and Fair play for the family of Gan Eng Gor (deceased)
1. Our father was seventy four (74) years old. He suffered a severe stroke in 2006. He was as immobilized,bedridden, mentally unsound, cannot speak, partially deaf and has very poor vision.
2. We transferred him to stay with one of our brothers in Klang. Our aged mother looked after, bathed andfed him. She also helped to look after our nephews and nieces.
3. Our father died on 20th Jan 2008. As Gan Hock Seng (the eldest son) is a member of the family, we informed him of our father’s death. He was then told us that our father is a muslim, we were shocked and did not believed him. So we continue to perform the wake service as our father have never led a muslim life. The Majlis Agama officers came and attempted to snatch the dead body, all our family members more shocked and angry, we resisted and strongly protested against the removal of our father’s body.
4. We obtained his alleged conversion papers from Majlis Agama the second day.
5. We were advised by our solicitors that there are serious irregularities in the said conversion papers especially the Declaration of Conversion into Islam.
a). The declaration was before a Pegawai Ukhuwah. His rubber stamp was on the paper but that officer did not sign.
b). Further there was no signatory at the certification column.
c). There was an illegal alteration on the date to 3rd July 2007.
d). The thumb print was questionable as we are certain that our deceased father was in Klang and not at the address No. 451, Taman Megaway, 70400 Sikamat, Seremban as stated in the application form.
e). His address stated in the Borang Perakuan Memeluk Islam is No: 1272, Jalan TBK 6/2, Taman Bkt Kepayang, 70200 Seremban, the residence of the eldest son. We wish to state that our father has never resided at this address.
f). The Majlis Agama Authorities claimed that our deceased father made an oral declaration in Arabic accepting the Muslim faith. Our family has medical confirmations from three doctors that our father was unable to speak.
g). We were asked to appear before the Syariah Court Seremban, we believe the Syariah Court is for Muslims only.
h). We refused to attend at the Syariah Court on a matter of principle as non-Muslims. We refused to submit to the jurisdiction of the Syariah Court.
i). The Syariah Court made a unilateral declaration that our father is a Muslim and is to be buried in accordance to Muslim rites.
j). We filed an application at the High Court Seremban to adjudicate on the validity, authenticity, veracity and legality of the conversion paper especially the declaration of acceptance into Islam.
k). The High Court Seremban dismissed our application on the ground that he has no jurisdiction to hear this matter as the subject matter falls within the purview of the Syariah Court. We beg to differ.
l). We were indeed shocked and aggrieved at the simplistic way the High Court disposed off this matter. We only seek justice, fair play and to find out the truth on his alleged conversion.
10. The eldest son Gan Hock Seng converted to Islam years ago. Our father and mother had strenuously opposed his conversion.
11. This eldest son had allegedly converted our father without the knowledge of our other and all other seven siblings.
12. Further, the eldest son had NEVER taken care of him physically and financially. He hardly visited him too.
13. Even if the eldest son had converted our father, we like to ask :
i). Why is it that he did not take care of him and brought him to stay in his house to lead a Muslim life?
ii). Why did he allow our father to continue living in a non‐muslim home in Klang ? Our father had never prayed and continued eating pork and other non‐halal food. He never revealed to anyone that he has converted to Islam.
iii). Why he as a Muslim, did not ensure that our father (if he had been indeed converted) led a Muslim life ?
iv). Why is it that the Agama Islam authorities did not visit and follow up with our father – the alleged new convert, after his conversion?
14. We believe we have been unfairly treated by our eldest brother and the Agama Islam authorities in this alleged conversion of our father. If there had been a conversion, we firmly believe that the Agama Islam authorities should have informed all members of the family. There should not be a fight over the body of dead person. There should be dignity and respect on the dead person.
15. We hope the PM and the higher ups in the Islamic Authorities review this case and to ensure that the truth is unraveled. We hope that all conversions to Islam is fair and transparent and made known to all the next of kin of the convert.
We Seek Justice, Fair play and Truth in this matter.
Let Gan Eng Gor be the last body-snatching case in Malaysia. The Cabinet Ministers should stop shirking their responsibilities to the people and nation and should place the Gan Eng Gor case on the top of Cabinet agenda on Wednesday to put an immediate end to all “body-snatchings” in Malaysia.

Here we go again...

KUALA LUMPUR: A husband filed an interim injunction application at the High Court yesterday to stop the Federal Territory Islamic Council from claiming the body of his late wife who he claimed was a practising Christian at the time of her death.

Ngiam Tee Kong, 53, filed the ex-parte application, which also named the director of Hospital Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia (HUKM) as the first defendant.The application filed through Messrs Karpal Singh & Co yesterday is expected to be heard today.The body of Wong Sau Lan, 54, who died on Dec 30, is at the HUKM mortuary.In his affidavit, Ngiam said when he went to HUKM to claim his wife's body, he was informed that it would only be released to him if he confirmed that she was a Muslim at the time of her death.

He was also told that the body would be released to him only for having Christian rites to be performed, after which it was to be returned to the hospital for it to be buried according to Muslim rites.Ngiam claimed that on Dec 31, a day after Wong died, he received a declaration of conversion dated the same day signed by the Federal Territory Religious Department director, stating that Wong converted to a Muslim on Dec 24 at a flat in Jalan Siakap, Cheras.Ngiam, a manager of an entertainment outlet, said the letter given to him did not state his wife's Muslim name. He said she was a practising Christian at the time of her death.He said the letter of conversion was not in compliance with the provisions of Section 90(1) of the Administration of Islamic Law (Federal Territories) Act, 1993, as it was not given to Wong before her death.Ngiam is seeking, among others, declarations that:- Wong was a Christian at the time of her death;- she did not fully embrace Islam before she died; - she was not a Muslim at the time of her death.He also wants the court to issue an order that he had the right to his wife's body and for the hospital director to release it to him immediately.